Ep. 12 Maarten Visser - Horn OK Please!

On this episode of Stage Matters, host Aravind welcomes his bandmate and friend, saxophonist and composer Maarten Visser, for a captivating conversation about the art of performance. Maarten takes us on a journey from his childhood in Holland, to his evolution as an artist.

Maarten opens up about moving beyond the need to impress with technical skill and finding his personal truth in music. He shares his meticulous preparation process for a show, highlighting the importance of a deep connection with his bandmates and the audience. He also reflects on his unique relationship with his beloved saxophones, the clear distinction between practice and performance, and the crucial role the audience plays in a successful show.

This episode offers a profound look into the mind of a master improviser who believes that at its core, performance is about sharing a personal truth with others. Join us as Maarten discusses the future of live performance in a digital world and shares his insights on everything from stage persona to handling feedback.

Transcript

My guest today is a saxophonist, composer, bandleader, and a master improviser. He's also my bandmate and a good friend, Martin Visser. Hi, Martin. 

Welcome to Stage Matters. Hello, Arvind. Thank you for having me. 

Okay, this might feel strange, but it's all good. It is rather strange. So, how did you get into performing? How did it all begin? How did it begin? I can tell you that. 

So, this is... But it's a little bit... You have... We have to then travel back into... Yes. Yeah, very ancient times, right? That's the idea. Okay, so... I grew up in a family that was... No, I have to choose my words very carefully. 

That took me and my brother and sister to a lot of concerts. Mostly orchestras, and that was... In that time, and maybe still, I don't know, actually. It was very cheap or free, because it was a state orchestra, or the province, actually. 

This is in Holland. It is in Holland. So, as I remember it, but you know how that is with these long-term memories, it was almost every week that we went for orchestras. 

And mostly it was very classical, and very... From a certain period, classical. Like, the classical period, also. And I enjoyed this. 

My brother and sister hated it, but I enjoyed this. But this is not what I wanted to talk about. Once, there was another kind of performance, which was an improvised band, and it was called the Willem Breuker Kollektief. 

And Willem Breuker was, he died, a saxophonist. And I... Can you spell that name out? Breuker, B-R-E-U-K-E-R, Breuker. Willem, W-I-L-L-E-M. 

Yeah, no, it's W-I-L-L-E-M. Okay. Yeah, you can look him up. 

His band, Willem Breuker Kollektief, and he was part of the ICP, which is a very famed improviser's collective from Amsterdam. They are still alive, or whoever is still alive, they're still playing. They're amazing. 

So those have become my musical godfathers or something. No, it's not. Well, there's a Dutch school of improvisation, and I've been bitten by that bug, I guess. 

Anyway, I saw this, and I thought I was five at the time, and I knew this was that guy, that was me, that I was. So yeah, then it started. That was how I... Well, I didn't think about performance or anything. 

I just thought, okay, that's me. You want to do that. That is what I need to do. 

So I was too young at the time to play saxophone, so I only started when I was 12. But that image was always... Or that sound also, like the energy and the chaos and the joy that band was having. The noise, it was all amazing. 

So yeah, so that's where it started. So how has your understanding of performance evolved from the first time you stepped on stage till now? How has it changed? So the first time I stepped on stage, I must have been 13 or 14, with a rock band, or no, a metal band, probably. Distortion sax? Yeah, of course. 

And then I played in a school band that played classic rock and pop, like 80s stuff or current at that time. Then I also wanted to impress and play well and fast and... Yeah, something like this, you know, like and be good and all that. Um, so it was, yeah, I guess... Yeah, I guess it started like that. 

And now... It would be funny to say it's the same, but really not. No, now it's something completely different. I need... Yeah, this idea where what I started with, of being good and being very technical and impress, that's mostly to impress your peers, right? But then I got much more interested about to play what the music you like and the music you love, and you get completely distracted for a long time, at least I did, by technicalities about improvisation and jazz and the rules and regulations and what was good and bad. 

And in order to... Yeah, I didn't have much... Shucks, this is chaotic. It's a complicated question. Yeah. 

Because for the longest time, I thought I needed to learn jazz because this is what I need to learn in order to get to where I want to go, which I always knew was somewhere else. Where that was, I didn't know. But I knew I had to somehow conquer this whole idea of jazz. 

And that... Yeah. So when you enter that and maybe... And when you enter that, you lose track of what you're actually doing. You get caught in technicalities. 

You get caught in what's good and bad. And you get very sure about what music you should listen to and what you secretly listen to. Or, you know, like there's a whole lot of that. 

And that lasted for quite a while. Until I think I was already in my last year of conservatory, where I thought, you know, I have to admit to myself, I will never be a jazz musician. And I don't want to be. 

It's not something that interests me. I will never gain the depth of knowledge and experience of that music and where that came from, comes from. And frankly speaking, I don't even think that I like it that much or love it that much. 

I like it a lot. I love it. But do I love it that much that I want to spend my life doing that? No. 

Then the question beckons, okay, then what? And that is then where you have to make some really hard choices and say, okay, then what? I don't know. But that is what I need to find out. So this is... So first what I thought of, okay, first you become a musician and then you spend 15 years. 

I spent at least 15 years becoming a musician. And then I spent 10 or 15 or still I'm spending that to become the artist that you need to be. And you have to be brutally honest all this time. 

And so there are things that you don't do and you have to make hard choices. And why do you become that? Because you need for yourself come to what the truth, what for you is the truth about sound and music and how it's constructed and developed. And because you want to share that and not for yourself, but for people to, well, you know, make the world a better place or enrich people's life or share something that maybe they can, that people, that is useful in any way music can be useful. 

Can you take me through your preparation process for a performance? For one show? For one show. It depends. Okay, so I have to now separate the kind of performances that I have been doing, let's say the last five years. 

So there is performances that I... Commercial shows and then... Yeah, you have the shows that you are the entertainer and you're the shows that you are the artist. Maybe, maybe we can say it like this. So if there is a... Look, we can take a many things show. 

So if a many things show, then I think, okay, we're going to play these tunes. I make sure that I know all the music by heart, that I know the sequence of the tunes by heart. I also work out the ideas that I'm going to base my solos upon so that I don't play the same solo twice. 

That they're not the same ideas. Well, it might happen occasionally, but I really try to work out that I don't repeat myself because the whole set is planned in such a way that... Well, basically that the first sound leads to the next, to the next, to the last. And that there's a certain tension over the whole set, over the whole, over one tune, over then, over one solo, over one lead. 

So I want that to be... At least in my imagination, in my head, I've worked that out so that it will be possible to take an audience or one audien. That depends. And then I need also the band, us. 

Ideally, and I think we have that most of the time, that we are connected like, you know, in the middle, the drums are there, the bass is there, and I'm here. That we have one thing, one shared thing that we all hold on to each other. We feel each other, we know what that is. 

And so there's one thing that we throw out and that gets received and then it comes back. And so then it, ideally, it becomes one thing, right? And those are the best shows where the audience can receive and become, and come with you on this whole thing. That doesn't always happen, but that is the idea. 

You know, I know you're very possessive about your gear. Yeah. Can you tell us about your relationship with your equipment? My daughter always says, yeah, if there's a fire in the house, you'll save your saxophones and you'll leave me. 

And I say, no, no, no. I'll tell you to take my saxophones and run with me. Yeah, I've had the same horns forever and they are what I consider the best horns ever made. 

And if I maintain them well, which is hard here, but I try, they will outlive me. And I love that. And I would also like it that after I'm done, someone else takes that horn and plays. 

Like I took this horn from someone, I don't know who. And you feel that, especially with the tenor. When I bought it, I knew someone much better than me had played that. 

Yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, I love the fact that they made these horns to last. And I think I should honour that. 

And yeah, and it's, you know, I work with them every day. So it's more than a thing. It's a musical instrument. 

It's not a thing. It's a musical instrument. So yeah, yeah, they are. 

Yeah, I know it gets a little excessive. Don't carry my horns. And then, you know, it's a little bit like that. 

But that is also because I know if anything happens, I cannot get it repaired easily here. Or I have to do it mostly myself. And so it's if something happens, better I do it. 

Because, you know, if someone else does it, you know, if it happens, then yeah, you know, it's like, yeah, you get so stuck. Um, so it's better. There's also that side to it. 

Yeah, but yeah, yeah, the poor security at the airport. It's not always pretty. What's the difference between practise and performance? They have nothing to do with each other. 

I never play when I practise. Or I make it a point not to play. Or there is no point of playing. 

Because playing, you don't do for yourself. You do for someone else. And you do it with people like it's a joint thing. 

Practise, you need to do and you need to do as much as you possibly can to enable you to the link between your brains and your fingers has to be as small as possible. And of course, there are bad days. And then nothing works. 

But you need to have that connection has to be solid. That you only can do that if you're completely in touch with your instrument. It's mostly for that in your performance, you don't have to think about your instrument. 

You don't have to think about technique. You don't have to. You can just build on that. 

You can trust that. Because at that point, you have other things to do. You need your lines or your sound or whatever you want to do. 

You need that to come when you need it in that instant. And that you then serve the demands of the music. And so you have to be able to take a whole lot of things for granted. 

If you practise when you're playing, it will sound like shit. It is not shit, maybe. Maybe it will sound really good, but it will also not be very exciting. 

You're failing to communicate something also. I'm just now remembering one story of a famous American saxophonist whose name evades. He came to Amsterdam and he played. 

I think it was Ben Webster. Okay, he played with a Dutch pianist. They played a ballad, maybe Body and Soul. 

One of these big ballads. He played a beautiful solo. Beautiful song.
 The whole song is beautiful. Everybody in tears, like one of these. So great. 

Next day, he plays exactly the same solo. And the next day again. So this pianist asked him, why do you play the same solo every day? So he says, what? You don't like it? Yeah. 

So that's the other side to it, right? So yeah, that is also one thing where you have practised something so much that you're not practising it anymore. You're playing it. But that would be more like a Western classical thing. 

You perform that music and you do that so well. And that is just perfect. I'm coming to think of that. 

This is a stream of consciousness. There are jazz musicians that basically have developed that one solo approach over their whole life, right? Like this one. When you hear them, you get a version or a part of that one perfect solo that they have. 

Miles also plays certain things. You can see that, yeah. Mike Stern, I would think. 

But there are a lot of them. And this is not a criticism at all. If you can contribute one fantastic solo to the jazz history, I mean, you're good, right? So I value that. 

And I love that Mike Stern or Miles' solo, the phrasing and everything. It's just fantastic. I am not like that. 

I need to be with the band. The band will colour my playing. The band will radically change whatever I'm even thinking about music. 

And that's, well, I need that. Yeah, OK. You talked about communicating ideas and we talked about skill and technique. 

Is there something like beyond in performance? Something like people may use words like spiritual or profound. Or is it just a means of communication? Where does one become the other? It's open. I can communicate very profound things, right? And where that becomes something spiritual. 

I don't know. I don't know the audience. Well, most of the time I do know the audience, but you don't know. 

So you don't know what their day has been, what their life has been. Nothing, you know. So I don't know what that sound is going to do. 

Because their human experience is on a daily level very different. On a larger, profounder level, their human experience will be maybe similar to mine. And so they will connect it somehow, but differently. 

And so how and if at all that moves people is not so much up to me. Having said that, if I'm really honest, OK, I'll be honest. Then I'm also not completely clueless about what I'm throwing out, right? I also know, OK, this is largely this direction. 

You still don't know what it does to one individual. So yeah, there is a large unknown there. And that's a very good thing. 

I don't know if this is spiritual at all. I do not know. How does identity and personal history inform your performance? Your identity and your personal history. 

Yeah, I am playing from my perspective. I was born in Holland, you know, whatever. I lived in different places. 

Then I came to India when I was 26. So I am sure it informs me on some level. I do not, I am not, you know, it will be, uh, oh, well, I don't know. 

OK. Is there a difference in the culture of performance between Europe and here? Culture of performance? Yeah, like the way things are done on stage and how artists interact. Everything is different. 

But you know what I find here is what that is also why, which is really nice. Because the music that we play, a lot of people that we meet and play for don't have that much reference. They're fairly open, though, towards it. 

And so they respond to sound. They respond to an energy. And they turn it into something for themselves. 

There's no cynicism, which is really nice, right? So we don't get cynical audiences. No, I don't know. I don't think so. 

Maybe one or two people walk out. No, walking out is something else. That's not cynicism. 

That's just, OK, this is not music. I don't want to. I don't need.
 This is a waste of my time. This is not music. I get that.
 OK, this is not for you. It's good. I have no problem with that.
 Or people find it offensive or it's noise. And it's all true also. Yeah, no, I don't find that. It's not cynicism as such. So yeah, we don't get that. We also don't get many. 

We don't have many outlets to play our music. That is the counter to it. And there's not many places that I can go or grow. 

Both of these aspects are in abundance. Yeah, so I'm not saying things are easy there because it's really crowded. But there's like these different rungs of performances that you can do. 

And it gets a little better. You know, and you can grow into that if you stay together and keep playing. Then you'll grow. 

But you have to. You're like there with a lot of other people. But things would fall into place at some point somehow. 

You're known for improvisation. OK. So I ask everyone about improvisation. 

But I won't ask you that because that is your... I want to ask you about the other side. How much importance is planning and rehearsal and doing structured things? And how do you balance that? OK, I have... I like... Or a fully improvised thing where it's fully improvised. Nothing. 

We can just say, OK, we start here, we end there. And that is it. And we go for like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 50 minutes. 

And we don't stop before we get there. I like that. And then you see. 

And if you're with good improvisers, that just flies by. Or if not even good improvisers, if it clicks in a certain way. Or the opposite of click. 

If it's like 3D, like sort of thing. But then that's interesting. It's exciting. 

I like also... And that's what I've tried to do with many things like a band that's fully rehearsed. And where the compository element is large. Strong, yeah. 

And that informs also the solo parts of it. Or the improvised parts of it. And it becomes like one thing. 

And it becomes like a fist that you just throw out. And I love that. Power that you feel as a band that's rehearsed. 

Even though there are mistakes and stuff. But mistakes never bother me. That mistakes... Things can grow out of mistakes. 

That is not... I don't think we've ever had a problem about mistakes. I was going to ask you that. But what about other things in the... Suppose something goes wrong in the auditorium. 

Somebody, some... Some phone goes off? Yeah, some phone goes off. Or some speaker goes off in the middle. Oh, I don't care. 

No, if it's a noise, then you can work that in your improvisation. That might be like a funny thing for a moment. These things generally don't disturb me. 

If the first... Did they used to before? No, never. If the first row is more interested in talking to each other than to listen to me, that disturbs me. Because that sort of... The energy between the band and that really... Like it sidetracks the whole thing. 

So that disturbs me a lot. Then I can't do it anymore. My whole... It's an energetic thing. Like I don't feel the band anymore. I don't you know, we've had this yeah, somebody comes on stage to adjust something But you know, I don't even see it because I play with my eyes closed, but but it's just like something is really really disturbed Yeah, but not if they're in the back if they're sitting and eating and drinking that doesn't disturb me or a phone goes off all that I Really don't mind and if people also walk out it's also good So I'm open to I don't mind a whole lot of messiness I don't need like this a completely pin drop side and auditorium is nice if it happens But but generally it doesn't happen and it's and it's fine And I like actually also a noisy audience also gives you yeah, you know, it gives a whole lot of stuff So you have to then if you like that you have to also take the other side of that Does the audience have a role or a responsibility or is it solely the performers? Responsibility to make the audience like you Yes, so it is the audience's responsibility to give the music The attention it requires it demands if it audience doesn't do that. There's no connection If the audience does that then it's the performance It's a performer's responsibility to give 500% back and I give triple four times But it's there The initial responsibility is with the audience. 

Okay How important this? Appearance and persona stage persona to you. It's important The performance starts the moment you walk in wherever you are on stage then it's already started And it's also about the clothes that you wear. It's about The way you pick up your instrument the way you know like You you are already performing and you're already This thing is going there and you're already sharing your your Whatever you have to share. 

Yeah, it's important And so but I like bands who who find it important whether it's all suits or you know, Bootsy Collins, whatever I like I always like bands who have thought about that. How do you handle feedback both audience or a critic write something? I don't get much No, no, no I do I There are a few People whose opinion I really really value And I will I will go and ask their opinion and I will if they say certain things I will change things in the music. Okay Because they are What I think are friendly experiencers as in they will take it in In the most positive of ways and if it's not doing what according to them music needs to do Then I need to take that seriously And I I I might change music because of this Yeah, I'm also sucker for compliments. 

So that is Yeah, I know but this is where you know all your damages and whatever do lifelong Whatever whatever so that is insatiable But so I like people saying nice things and if people don't like it and say it It doesn't do me that much anymore because I know That what I do now That I really believe that I'm getting closer to a certain truth. No, it is true for me at this point I'm not done yet. But this is true for me now and I'm trying to Share that in the best possible way that I know Yeah, but so these few people and there are four or five of them I will Absolutely listen and change things if they say this is not doing what it's supposed to do Yeah Let's talk about a touchy topic money Money how has it been your relationship with money over your performing career, you know, I know it's there been tough times There are always 

tough times money has been a problem There it has never not been a problem Hmm, and I don't want to say challenge also because it's not a challenge. 

It's a problem because it's not going to go away Because Maybe I'm stupid but or the ecosystem doesn't support it. Yeah well, so That's for me. It's been necessary to do both I have to do Artistic shows for me. 

Hmm little to develop my truth food to come closer to what I who I am As a musician and what I have to share And what I want to give and the world I think is necessary to give all that necessary stuff and I have also Yeah, I have two children they all they had to go to school they in college or now, you know, like yeah It's never ending and and so I do a lot of commercial work and I don't mind doing that. I honestly I like playing Standards for a corporate party. I like it Under the right circumstances like basically the right circumstances No thing with money and I get nobody bothers me for three hours and I play hmm, that's it Amazing I love it and if it's with the band even better So, but it's always a problem it's all I Know you don't do this. 

But what's your opinion on external stimulants and performance alcohol drugs? I Effective of a fellow performer is high. I remember the first many things performance, huh, and You know, you know very well many things. That's a very mental thing But you need to have your brain together you need to know where the hits and kicks are and there's a there like Thousands of notes that you have to play. 

Yeah exact spot where they need to be played If you have a drink or two to take the edge of you take the edge of that also and so then you're swimming basically, you know so that But I've played with people who Where or alcohol or cocaine or whatever hmm and They were playing better actually playing. Okay, so that happens actually it exists But I know this from well, this is long ago. There was a guy who was a sessions guy and he had does so much work And he had he wanted to keep going. 

So he just this was the cocaine Sorry, and just and he got that edge back and then he went and I do not recommend it No, I don't judge it. I Do not want for my own bands. I don't want people on stage Who are really stone because it's not it doesn't work for the music Requires another kind of presence and not yeah, not I need the edge I don't want the edge off after the show you do whatever you want. 

And This is that that's not a show. That's not up to any of us. Yeah, well If it's a commercial show again, I yeah, then it is actually right So till you leave the hotel or whatever that show is you have to behave in a certain way Which you know There's a protocol for that in Like the shows that we play with many things after show you have to also that has to all we have to let it go So Jimmy stays with you for a long time, right? So Whether that's drinking or yeah, I watch violent movies. 

Ah pleasures. Yes And I turn the sound off or it's very low I don't want to hear it and explosions and whatever and then car chases and I Now if you tell me to show you watch a violent movie 

at car chase I'm like that's too boring I can't but after show it's definitely what I'm going to do afterwards. I don't remember the title. 

I don't you know, it's not about that So we are living in this total digital world going in and AI is taking over. Yeah What do you think is going to be role of human performance in the future? It's going to be even More important than it's now I think so, too. Yeah. 

Yeah We need community. I Feel people already now are looking for that and craving it and wanting it like needing to congregate and to feel to be human to feel the humanity with other people and To a music is perfect right because you're going You're experiencing something together the same thing together It's not also like sports where there's two opposing whatever. It's it's a unity. 

Yeah, so The right performance is very special and also on for an audience to feel Connected. Yeah, I don't know. It's maybe a little cliche, but I think that is that especially music can do that and needs to do that and And we'll do that and and the performance the performers also have to Throw as much of the humanity in it To to make it as complete as possible. 

Yeah, including mistakes and all the mistakes are not. Yeah Mistakes are fine Mistakes are sometimes good sometimes, you know, sometimes they're bad, but they're human. That's what we what we do Yeah We're close to wrapping up Oh, how would you if you had like one philosophy or one line to tell what's the essence of performance Being on stage performing it's about Sharing a personal truth with With whoever is able to receive See you got it. 

That's it. That's it. Brilliant, Martin. 

Thank you Thank you very much for listening I really hope you enjoyed the show. There will be new episodes every Tuesday so don't forget to come back